I agree - the juvenility of it is astonishing. Lots of things make me feel old these days (at nearly thirty), but I can't get that way with him because he's FORTY. He's not some kid who's a little behind in his emotional development, he's a middle-aged asshole.

The impulse to shock for shock's sake is pretty intrinsically immature, I think, and when someone of his advanced years and life experience is still stuck there... it would be more pitiable than anything else if it wasn't so evidently harmful to those around him.

used to be able to squint and tell myself mayyyybe it's ABOUT misogyny

I was at a little goth show like this recently, and I just couldn't tell... what's your litmus test? Can we count on stuff like reading interviews to judge whether the artist is/was being misogynist? Or should it be based on just the art (music video, concert, whatever) as an island?

This.

Oh, and this?

I had two condoms -- alien things to me, I haven't seen them in 25 years -- and I threw them on the mirror...

So, in addition to being a misogynistic ass, he's also not into protecting himself and his partners against STDs? Again, I'm concerned for Manson's young, impressionable fanbase. WRAP IT, KIDS. DON'T LISTEN TO THE ICKY GOTH MAN.

God, what a piece of work.

Yeah, even back when I was in awe of Eminem's technical (and, occasionally, artistic) prowess, I couldn't tolerate that content. And conveniently, he's also stopped bothering to excel as a performer so my appreciation doesn't hamper my enthusiasm for condemnation anymore.

The songs that were ostensibly written to tell his daughter how much he loves her, that also always included at least one verse about how her mother was crazy and manipulative and a junkie and a slut and he wanted to killer and, were probably the most directly harmful things he did. But the diffuse effect of his other, ever-more-generally-misogynist material, might have a more deleterious effect on society at large.

I don't know if you just hear "'97 Bonnie & Clyde" twelve years ago and figure he's still up to his old tricks or if you've kept any kind of an eye on his output, but his new comeback record is eighty-five minutes of music... roughly seventy of which are exclusively dedicated to gruesomely explicit, violent and homicidal rape fantasies. I mean he's gone way past just arguably being bitter at one person and otherwise only a bit sexist... he is at war with women. He has verses detailing kidnapping, raping and butchering Britney Spears, Lindsay Lohan... I can't remember who else, it's a weird batch of beleaguered young women celebrities.

I've been a student and aficionado of rap music for most of my life and I've had to process and swallow some pretty difficult-to-reconcile content in my day... but nothing comes close to what he's doing now in terms of sheer misogyny. He makes Schoolly D sound tame... hell, he makes 2 Live Crew sound like feminists.

THIS IS, as you say, NOT OKAY.

Calling someone 158 times is psychotic.

Calling someone 158 times and keeping count so he can write about it in his LJ shock interviewers with it later is giving real psychotics a bad name! SHEEEEEEE

Musical tastes aside, what excuses Slayer for glorifying similarly awful things in their art? The fact that they don't carry it over into their human-being interviews?

I don't ask this to be challenging, I've just never been much of a thrash/metal listener and I'm curious about your perspective as a person who's a fan of Slayer but doesn't condone Manson. I would have thought that without Slayer, there could be no Manson. What do you think?

Yeah, the "being real" question only arises if you care about HIM, as opposed to his effect upon the world.

eh... I think a lot of people do say things like "I want to kill him" or something if, e.g., their partner cheats on them. It can be harmless venting if it doesn't go further. It's unhealthy though if you're feeling that way just cause they broke up with you... I mean, that kind of implies that you think they don't have the right to break up with you or something.

Ha! Yes. He totally needs to listen to more country music.

His whole attitude in that interview (and indeed... every interview, and every piece of artistic output) is solipsistic and narcissistic. He's not just the only person who's ever felt a feeling... he's the only person who exists, period. "Me me me me me," he said.

Having spent some harrowing months as the object of certain things that a person betrayed in love became capable of thinking, feeling and DOING, I don't have a ton of patience for the blank cheque that some feel is written in the context of post-breakup pain.

Everyone gets emotionally injured at some point. What you do with that is part of the measure of your character. You know what hurts more than being broken up with? Being stalked, harrassed, assaulted and libeled by the person you broke up with.

Emotional trauma diminishes perspective, sure, but there are still some things you just don't do. Let's not forget - for Brian Warner to tell Spin Magazine that he fantasizes about specific, awful violence against Evan Rachel Wood in particular is not just having ugly thoughts. That's action, and that's an assault on her in the real world.

Broken heart, schmoken heart. He's forty years old and she's twenty-one (actually she was nineteen when their relationship first became public, and he a spry thirty-eight - precisely twice her age). He can suck it the hell up and act decent. No free passes on this one.

I should have included this when I posted my response just now - I'm not drawing any equivalent between what you went through and what I think he's doing. I'm sorry that you went through all of that and I don't mean to place blame for it on you as a person who was broken up with.

I think that it specifically doesn't get his comportment off the hook. Obviously emotional trauma explains and excuses all KINDS of awful things that happen.

I just didn't think until after I hit "Post Comment" that I had totally failed to disclaim that and it might look like I was saying YOU should have just sucked up YOUR terrible breakup or that your reaction was anything like the terrible ex that I endured. That's not what I think at all!

I agree that it's celebrated; the remarks above regarding Eminem's output are further illustrative of this.

Nobody gets to see a psychiatrist, though. You have to already be killing people before the world of mental health professionals starts to crack open a little to admit you. I mean, unless you have a year to spend on a waiting list. Mental health treatment is a joke.